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▲Fairness is what the powerful 'can get away with' study showsphys.org
124 points by PaulHoule 6 hours ago | 37 comments
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getnormality 4 hours ago [-]
I almost ignored this due to the sloganized, hard-to-understand title and the unreliability of the site. But the study actually seems pretty good, and the paper is well-written and open-access [1].

[1] https://spb.psychopen.eu/index.php/spb/article/view/11607

PaulHoule 3 hours ago [-]
Whenever my RSS reader shows me an article from phys.org and the article is open access I decide if I want to post the phys.org article or the paper, this was a toughie. A common situation is that the phys.org headline is "Scientists come to some conclusion" and the title of the paper was "We measured something"; this one was a tough call, I bet it would have gotten <5 upvotes had I posted a link right to the paper.

Sometimes phys.org articles are absolutely great, sometimes they suck, sometimes they run articles off the AP wire or from a university press release. Their advertising is reprehensible, but I've looked at the alternatives and most of them are much worse, it's one reason why phys.org and related sites are on the list of top sites submitted to HN by people other than myself, not just the list of top sites I submit to HN. (I post enough that I really have to take stats ex-myself because for some sites, like coindesk, I post most of them)

getnormality 3 hours ago [-]
I ended up clicking through because I saw your name!
PaulHoule 2 hours ago [-]
Thinking about it now I'm surprised that Mancur Olsen doesn't get mentioned

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Logic_of_Collective_Action

as his theory is precisely about how when collective action is difficult people don't do it.

w10-1 26 minutes ago [-]
Right effect, wrong mechanism.

It's not free rider but coordination costs -- the same reason democracies are at a disadvantage relative to authoritarian regimes.

Transaction cost ecomomics has been studying this and other transactions features since before 1965. Key to their methodology and success is comparing actual to actual alternatives, instead of actual to imagined.

svara 7 minutes ago [-]
> the same reason democracies are at a disadvantage relative to authoritarian regimes.

Are they? There aren't very many examples of successful authoritarian regimes. Singapore and China?

ccorcos 37 minutes ago [-]
Very insightful. 1965 was an interesting time to write this book too with welfare being passed around then.
leobg 1 hours ago [-]
This is an incredibly sad read.
PaulHoule 26 minutes ago [-]
Yeah, one corollary is that membership-oriented groups like Greenpeace, the NRA, PIRG and such are not effective at representing member’s interests because they have no way of communicating displeasure other than leaving whereas the sponsor of something like

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koch_network

Has a meaningful voice. See another book from about the same time

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exit,_Voice,_and_Loyalty

thevillagechief 1 hours ago [-]
So this is just Thrasymachus - "Justice is nothing other than the advantage of the stronger"?
lordleft 1 hours ago [-]
We have not evolved far beyond the same problems that bedeviled Socrates and his interlocutors, have we?
0xbadcafebee 25 minutes ago [-]
> We have not evolved

We're still just apes with hats. Very complicated hats, but it's still an ape wearing it. You can teach a few apes a whole lot of tricks, but it takes a lot. Most of the apes won't learn much. The few smart apes will learn tricks and incentives, which when properly applied, allow those few smart apes to control the rest of the apes. That control is called society.

eachro 3 hours ago [-]
I'm reminded of the nixon quote: "When the president does it, that means it's not illegal."
schmidtleonard 2 hours ago [-]
It was aspirational then, but after 50 years of working to create the Unitary Executive it is now fact.
more_corn 2 hours ago [-]
Only if we let it be fact. Surely there’s a line.
p_j_w 20 minutes ago [-]
That line was crossed when we re-elected Mr. January 6th.
ujkhsjkdhf234 20 minutes ago [-]
There isn't.
thrance 2 hours ago [-]
And thanks to our corrupt SCOTUS, it's been put into law! The president can now do whatever they want, as long as they claim it's for their job.
GuB-42 55 minutes ago [-]
True in most countries. The president or more generally the chief of the executive often has legal immunity. It makes sense because that are the law, at least in part.

In democracies there a usually some protection against abuse of that power (ex: impeachment).

TheOtherHobbes 8 minutes ago [-]
The UK has sovereign immunity.

The monarch is literally above the law. They cannot be arrested, questioned, tried, or punished for any reason.

Of course it would raise eyebrows if King Charles went on a shooting spree. But what happens behind closed doors is none of the public's business.

thucydides 3 hours ago [-]
n=256 undergraduates playing “The Ultimatum Game.”

The headline (“fairness is what the powerful can get away with”) is a tad lofty given the methodology of the study.

jvanderbot 4 hours ago [-]
Isn't the flip-side of this "The powerful do not do what they will be held accountable for"?

Yes, everyone does what they can get away with in a mixed-incentive game.

gryfft 37 minutes ago [-]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Might_makes_right
FergusArgyll 4 hours ago [-]
Surely this will replicate...
mrala 3 hours ago [-]
> He added, however, that it is important to remember the limitations of such studies: "We used point/money to represent the real-life costs associated with actions like campaigning or going on a protest march. Experiments like these are only meant to simulate aspects of the real world, not perfectly represent its complexity."

> Behavior may be different if participants had earned their points rather than simply received them, or both Proposers and Responder shared a common identity or wider goal.

> "Still," Dr. Gordon continues, "it is a reminder that we should be mindful of attempts to limit the ability to hold power to account. For example, through anti-protest, anti-strike, and voter suppression laws. In an era marked by growing global inequality, this study offers critical insights into the psychology of power, and the mechanisms that can promote more equitable societies."

4 hours ago [-]
tyleo 4 hours ago [-]
I feel like fairness is what anyone can get away with and powerful people just tend to get away with more. Even the article seems to land on this conclusion.
potato3732842 4 hours ago [-]
>Even the article seems to land on this conclusion.

But the title landed in the next county because that's what the editor's job is in the modern era of clicks and eyeballs.

tyleo 4 hours ago [-]
Yeah, that’s what I was alluding to. There had to be a slight, “you’re getting screwed,” angle to it.
FrustratedMonky 4 hours ago [-]
I'd like to see add on study on 'Banality of Evil'.

Here "The willingness of those in power to act fairly depends on how easily others can collectively push back against unfair treatment, psychologists have found."

What about all the the middle managers that enable the powerful.

The more the middle layer of population supports the powerful, the less the 'masses' can revolt to enforce fairness.

All revolutions are actually started by the middle class which gets upset. The true lower class masses never have the resources to get off the ground.

pessimizer 3 hours ago [-]
A buffer class of courtiers. If you got rid of every powerful dictatorial elite with one magical bolt of lightning, the upper-middle class would have new ones chosen by the end of the day.
kelseyfrog 35 minutes ago [-]
Yes, this is a trivial consequence of social reproduction theory.

It's one of the reasons why change is so difficult. Changing one portion of society creates an impedance mismatch between it and the rest. The changed part eventually gets realigned to the whole once again.

FollowingTheDao 3 hours ago [-]
"Results suggest that the ease of collective action induces more egalitarian behavior by individuals in a position of power and makes those without power less willing to accept unfairness."

This is why capitalists dislike unions so much, becasue they know this. Together we are stronger.

aleph_minus_one 2 hours ago [-]
> This is why capitalists dislike unions so much, beca[us]e they know this.

No, the reason why capitalists hate unions so much is that it is another layer of incredibly annoying bureaucrats that you have to get along with.

What you describe might rather be the reason why people who have dark triad traits don't like unions; these people often are not "convinced capitalists", but rather people who use capitalism (or whatever the current system is) to their advantage.

PaulHoule 1 hours ago [-]
I'd argue that unions can help an area be more competitive.

Any carpenter or handyman could nail together a stage for a movie, but members of the Carpenters Local 213 in LA are experts at efficiently building that kind of temporary structure and they do it efficiently. What would be a difficult HR problem in most places is just "call the union hall" in Hollywood; it has some costs, but it has some benefits.

hobs 2 hours ago [-]
A distinction without a difference to anyone observing a "convinced capitalist" from the outside.
FollowingTheDao 2 hours ago [-]
> No, the reason why capitalists hate unions so much is that it is another layer of incredibly annoying bureaucrats that you have to get along with.

I will never understand this perception. You think there is no bureaucracy in businesses? They want to be the sole bureaucrat is all, so getting rid of all other bureaucrats makes them more profit.

Bureaucracy is the administrative system governing any large institution, whether publicly owned or privately owned.

Capitalism favors dark triad traits. What capitalist doe snot use capitalism for their own advantage?

Corporate Psychopathy: The Dark Triad Traits in Business Leaders https://scribe.rip/psychologs-magazine/corporate-psychopathy...

webdoodle 26 minutes ago [-]
Just in time for the Epstein Kompromat op to go full Streisand Effect.

https://edition.cnn.com/2025/08/12/politics/trump-epstein-re...

yassqn 2 hours ago [-]
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ihsw 25 minutes ago [-]
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TacticalCoder 4 hours ago [-]
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